Go to church y'all Our country needs Jesus

If the United States wins the World Cup I will become a heart lander

I can tell he listened to less than 30% of our response Livestream IYKYK

Listening to Mormonism Unvailed on audiobook for my debate prep was fun. The narrator mispronounced almost every Book of Mormon name. I appreciated his commitment to presenting it in the spirit in which it was written.

Joseph and Hyrum were murdered by a mob. Period. End of story. Whatever you think of Joseph and Hyrum, this was unwarranted and evil.

Saying “this debate has really made me appreciate how my religion used to just kill people instead of debate them” is lowkey the funniest possible reaction to a debate

Tonight I'll Livestream with Ward Radio about the debate and the fallout youtube.com/live/XklLXOMjdh8…

I have a limited skillset, but I would totally win this.

Paul was on the way to persecute Christians when he allegedly received divine revelation. I'm glad Cameron is hedging here with "chances are" instead of Ethan's strategy of speaking in absolutes. And to be clear the historical record is very fuzzy on this event. Conflicting stories, hostile sources, none of them saw the event they just said the Smiths took a sheep to use for it. And the sources get other facts about the Smiths family wrong, like their work ethic. Even if we grant something like this happened Ethan and Cameron are the ones saying it was to a demon. They're adding that assumption into the already fuzzy history! Dan Vogel, Ethan's main source of information and analysis of the sources says "the magic worldview the Smiths had was completely invisible to them" it didn't even cross their mind they had practices most didn't consider part of normal Christianity. Vogel doesn't commit to the sheep story, but if it did happen he views it as being an imitation of Old Testament practices. I agree with him. So the argument fails on three counts: logic of this argument, strength of the sources, and assumptions about the event.

I disagree with the latter part. Latter-day Saints sincerely worship Jesus Christ and intend to worship the Jesus revealed in Scripture (just as we, Nicene Christians, intend to worship the Jesus revealed in Scripture). However, LDS theology understands Jesus differently in essential ways—especially regarding His eternal divinity, His relation to the Father, and the nature of God. We can recognize their devotion to Jesus while also being honest that we do not share precisely the same doctrine of who Jesus is.

I literally quoted a passage where people worship Jesus in the Book of Mormon. Another reason why it's a good idea to read it before commenting on it.

Matt Fradd famously called the Book of Mormon demonic and made a video on 7 reasons Joseph Smith is a false prophet, Trent Horn debated the Book of Mormon and even did a video with a Latter-day Saint on whether the Church is demonic, Joe Heschmeyer has done multiple videos on the Church plus debates and a multi-hour interview with Fradd. Yet NONE of Ethan's fellow Catholics treat this argument as a silver bullet like Ethan does, in fact I'm not sure they even mention it, maybe in passing. Why? Because Ethan's argument only carried weight if you use his assumptions. Treasure guardians have to be demons. It's impossible that Joseph mistook a spirit for a treasure guardian (remember the disciples reaction to Jesus walking on water?). It's impossible that Joseph's understandings of spirits when he was 17 was underdeveloped. It's impossible that the Smith families views on spirits don't fit neatly into Ethan's categories. And why is Ethan taking this as gospel truth when he said in the debate that Joseph was totally untrustworthy? Here are the descriptions of the angel in the earliest accounts : 1829 - Josephs uncle "he writes that the angel of the Lord has revealed to him the hidden treasures of wisdom & knowledge, even divine revelation, which has lain in the bowels of the earth for thousands of years [and] is at last made known to him, he says he has eyes to see things that art not, and then has the audacity to say they are; and the angel of the Lord (Devil it should be) has put me in possession of great wealth," 1829 - Palmyra newspaper: "Joseph Smith, of Manchester, Ontario county, reported that he had been visited in a dream by the spirit of the Almighty and informed that in a certain hill in that town, was deposited this Golden Bible, containing an ancient record of a divine nature and origin" 1830 - Three witnesses: shown plates by angel of the Lord (though this isn't directly and account of Moroni's visit) 1830 - D&C 20 (Joseph's actual first account of the event) "For after that <​it​> truly was manifested unto this first Elder that he had Received a remission of his sins he was entangeled again in the vanities of the world but after truly Repenting God ministered unto him by an Holy Angel whose countenance was as Lightning & whose garments were pure & white above all whiteness & gave unto him Commandments which inspired him from on high & gave unto him power by the means of which was before prepared that he should translate a Book which Book contained a record of a fallen People & also the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" 1830 - Letter from non-LDs source "He [Smith] claimed that the angel of the Lord had appeared and made known to him that in the neighborhood of Palmyra, there were golden plates hidden in the earth on which was written the fate of a Jewish prophet’s family, together with many as yet unfulfilled prophesies, and that the Lord had appointed him to translate the same from ancient languages into English." 1832 - unpublished Joseph Smith history - "when I was seventeen years of age I called again upon the Lord and he shewed unto me a heavenly vision for behold an angel of the Lord came and stood before me and it was by night and he called me by name and he said the Lord had forgiven me my sins and he revealed unto me that in the Town of Manchester Ontario County N.Y. there was plates of gold upon which there was engravings which was engraven by Maroni & his fathers the servants of the living God in ancient days." Joseph reports going to the hill and being unable to obtain the plates because he wanted to use them for personal gain. 1834 - Mormonism Unvailed accounts of spirits with heavier treasure guardian and occult themes (like Moroni being a toad at first) Hopefully you can see why even Christians, including most Catholics, don't use accounts about Moroni as definitive proof of demons. Usually they will say Joseph was influenced by treasure guardian beliefs and there is a possibility of demonic influence, but its not conclusive. Other stories Ethan used and other conclusions he came to follow a similar pattern. I almost have to respect the self-confidence required to be so confident in such a fringe viewpoint.

Apparently the Book of Mormon is demonic partly because it teaches modalism (the Father and Son are two modes of one person.) Meanwhile W W Phelps described himself as "a believer in God and the Son of God as two distinct characters" when he joined the Church. He joined in 1831, one year after the Book of Mormon was published.

Great job to both @emuse1955 and @LukeFHan tonight. Takes a lot of planning, effort, and courage to get in and do what yall both did. Well done to both of you for doing it!

Christians, would you take someone seriously who said they had read 30% of the Bible and were sure it taught Arianism. (Yes this is referring to the debate)

One last reminder: I'm debating TONIGHT on the topic The Book of Mormon is Demonically Inspired. This is a link to the Livestream, 5pm PST, 8pm EST. (6pm for you Utah folks) There will be a YouTube audience Q&A after youtube.com/live/FkDS9IeyBf0…