>"Who cares? Did they gradually ramp up women voting when men were "accustomed" to being the sole electorate? That seems not to have been a real concern. You say there is "no simple bi-directionality" but if you truly believe that men voting in the absence of women was an untoward privilege, then they absolutely had that ripped away abruptly. They were certainly accustomed to it."
I don't accept, and I don't think many others would, a false equivalence between having hierarchical privilege supplanted by legal equality and having legal equality ripped away and replaced by hierarchy. Sure, to the privileged, equality feels, in positional terms, like a loss of status. But that's not a serious moral argument - that's an appeal to status regardless of morality. I am assuming legal egalitarianism here as a normative moral good.
> "So then if and when the 19th is repealed then that will be the new new normal and everyone can become reaccustomed to it. Even better! Once we're all reaccustomed to it, we can then look back and mock the present that we find ourselves in as having been backwards. People will be saying "I cannot believe women wielded all of that political power with no associate responsibilities! And we were all worse off for it!" Looking forward to those shifting expectations."
If you assume the transition inevitably happens and time passes, I suppose you can say that society will go on and people will adjust by default. But my point was to highlight again how much more politically difficult it would be to take away rights that had become norms and expectations than to win them in the first place. I didn't realize you were simply assuming the conclusion that rapid confiscation of rights and subjugation of women would magically be feasible as a condition of the thought experiment.
>This is again a non-argument. I thought we were arguing about the merits of either position. Whether or not something is likely achievable is neither a merit nor a demerit against that thing. By that logic, world peace and ending world hunger are by far the least likely things to be achieved, so actually talking about achieving them is bad and we shouldn't even think about.
Sure, if we're assuming the conclusion again. But by those lights, it does raise the question of what the purpose is of speculating or debating impossible fantasies. Is it educational? Overton window engineering? What does it serve other than to upset people?
>I'm sorry, but this is the stupidest thing you've said so far. There is no burden of proof; nobody was discussing men asking women to give up their voting rights. The discussion was regarding what men might take into their own hands once specific conditions were met. If men have the ability through force to undo the 19th amendment, and enough men feel that it should be done and in fact that the 19th amendment was unjustifiable, of what use is your "burden of proof"? It's as if you don't remember where this argument began.
Fair - I was speaking to the absurdly unlikelihood of those conditions being met. I forgot you were doing Petitio principii. But again, I question the utility of "Imagine [TOTALLY ABSURD HYPOTHETICAL] as a prerequisite to this thing I think is correct.
This is like imagining what I'd do with a billion dollars, starting the thought experiment by finding an unclaimed pallet of a billion dollars on the sidewalk.
>"First of all, again, the conversation was never a matter of convincing people to agree. The conversation was implicitly about a critical mass of men arriving at these conclusions independent of your disapproval. There would be no great debate or social revolution. Why would I even repeatedly make the point of "monopoly on force"? Did those words mean nothing to you? Second of all, I perfectly laid out already how women's parity to men in the electorate coming at no cost to themselves is an instance of inequality. I do not see anywhere in your paragraphs a response to that. Which is fine, I accept you being left speechless. But do not then go on to slander me and say only those sexist and small-minded could be of these opinions. It is an objective state of affairs that I have described, where women obtained rights equal to men that came with no conditions attached even as men's rights are conditional. Men's civic rights came at the cost of civic responsibility, while women's did not."
Ok, a lot of the moral and rhetorical weight of your case rests on this unfairness - that women received civic benefits without the duties and burdens that were expected of men in an equivalent exchange.
Taking that at face value, if that is such a moral injury to men, such a social injustice, why not just duly increase the reciprocal responsibilities to society that women have to bear in exchange for their current rights? I'm sure we could come up with a fair list. Or, for that matter, reduce the burden on men? Whatever to make it more fair.
It seems disenfranchisement is a solution to that inequity that requires special justification when there are alternatives that both equalize the balance of duties and maintain each gender's political equality and autonomy. You need to make a separate argument for why it's preferable to demand that women be relegated back to 2nd class citizens instead - why that's a superior solution.
All in all, this is quite silly because the premise required to seriously discuss this requires a massive suspension of disbelief in taking some hand-waved set of conditions for men's coercive revocation of women's rights as a given.