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@mjgoldwater: Why do you have a positive vision for humanity?
@DavidDeutschOxf: Well, I think I'd rather use the word aspiration. So, I think that human beings are what I call universal explainers, which means that they're capable of arriving at any conclusion, but that's true or false. So, and we arrive at true ones via a history of false ones.
So, I think there is nothing beyond human capacity to create, to understand, to control, with the only limitation being the laws of physics. But equally, there's no limit to the size of error we can make. And we depend for both things on error correction.
So, error correction is the most important attitude of the mind, and it's also the most important institute, the most important characteristic of institutions in society.
@mjgoldwater: Sort of the most important mechanism. Yes.
So, just to drill down on that, why is error correction so important?
@DavidDeutschOxf: Because errors are inevitable. So, I'm a fallibilist, like Karl Popper. So, I believe that there's nothing infallible in the world.
There's no touchstone of truth that we can find somewhere in the garden and pick up and say, you know, is this true or not? And it'd be infallible.
@mjgoldwater: Sorry, whenever you say that, when I'm listening to you on your podcasts, I always think of the Pope.
@DavidDeutschOxf: Yes.
@mjgoldwater: Surely you must say, except for the Pope.
@DavidDeutschOxf: No. As I have often explained, even if the Pope is infallible, your theory that the Pope has said a particular thing is fallible.
Your theory that that is the Pope, you heard saying it, is fallible. Even if you break into the Vatican and hide somewhere, and by the way, he has to be sitting in the throne for it to be infallible.
@mjgoldwater: I didn't know that.
@DavidDeutschOxf: If he's not sitting in the throne, it doesn't count... So, he's sitting in the throne, you're hiding in the room, you see him sitting in the throne, and he says a thing.
You still can't be sure. You're not infallibly sure because you don't know that this is the day on which he's going to... Maybe he's doing a dress rehearsal.
@mjgoldwater: Or it could be a fake Pope. It could be a stand-in for the Pope.
@DavidDeutschOxf: So, these are all examples of the fact that in order to conclude that something is true on the grounds of papal infallibility, you have to assume fallibly a lot of other conditions, and you can't get past that.
There's no way of getting past that completely.
@mjgoldwater: So, we come to knowledge through fallibility. Is that what you're saying?
@DavidDeutschOxf: Yes.